Welches Team wechselt 2005 zu Bridgestone Reifen ???

vogtsophob hat geschrieben:

McBenetton hat geschrieben:

:D:D:D Da hat er sich ja heute ausgiebig zu ausgelassen...

naja, wie DC, er gibts nicht auf. ist ja eigentlich sympatisch, wenn auch nicht so 100% ernst zu nehmen

wobei ja dc zumindest theoretisch die möglichkeit gehabt hätte, weltmeister zu werden, denn von 2001 und 2002 war er der bessere fahrer in seinem team, während rubens jetzt schon seit 5 jahren von Michael abgehängt wird und michael rubens sogar jedes jahr mehr distanziert....

Um mal ein bisschen Aufklärung im Falle der Tyregate-Affäre von Ungarn 2003 zu tätigen hier ein klitzekleiner Auszug aus einem ausfürhlichen Interview mit Pierre Dupasquier. Geführt von unserer Kollegin Biranit Goren von AtlasF1.

Biranit Goren hat geschrieben:

(...)
BG: OK, I'll tell you what's the conspiracy theory on the Internet.

Dupasquier, giggling: "Ohhh, I like conspiracy theories!"

BG: Then you'll love this one. Some fans believe that this year's BAR was designed initially for Bridgestone, which was a narrower tyre in 2003, whereas the other Michelin teams began designing this year's car before the Hungarian Grand Prix last year, before the whole 'Tyre Gate' affair. So the conspiracy theory is that BAR were doing well this year because their car was built for narrower tyres. And because Michelin had to change to narrower tyres after Hungary last year - when your front tread width was deemed to be outside the permitted 270mm of the regulations - BAR has the most suitable car. That's the conspiracy theory.

Dupasquier: "Definitely a nice one! Well, you can always build theories like that. But the first thing I have to say is that BAR modified significantly their car according to our tyres, so it's not the Bridgestone car they're running.

"But most importantly, we did not modify our tyre - this year we ran the same tyre as we did last year, before Hungary. The only thing we changed was added a clear mark on both sides of the tread, to make it more visible and the measurement easier. Other than that, we did not modify anything to it - we didn't even change the mould, it's the same mould. So the conspiracy is therefore not valid."

BG: If it's the same tyre, then why wasn't it legal - according to what the FIA said - in the 2003 Hungarian Grand Prix, but in 2004 is was legal?

Dupasquier: "Well we believe it was always legal - before and after 2003. But after all the mess last year, the FIA have been very fair in saying, 'OK, we agree on the fact that the tyres have to be measured when they are new' - because afterwards you get on the curbs, you get trace of contact everywhere, it's a mess, not just the side wall. The whole problem was the interpretation of what's a tread? If you remember, Charlie [Whiting] wrote to the teams after Hungary last year and said the tread is the part of the tyre which is constantly and permanently in contact with the ground. And obviously no one part of the front tyre is constantly and permanently in contact with the ground. So once this was clarified, we talked some more and really there was no argument anymore."

BG: I don't get it. Are you telling me that since then, and throughout 2004, the FIA scrutineers do not measure the tread width of the front tyres after they are used?

Dupasquier: "No, they don't. And they didn't ask us to provide input on how to do that either."

BG: Really? So all this affair last year - with Ferrari accusing you of cheating - it sounds like all this was just a storm in a tea cup...

Dupasquier: "Oh yeah, somebody just wanted to spoil the World Championship last year, in case they don't win..."

BG: Come on, this is important; you're telling me that... The message that Charlie Whiting sent the teams last year stated that from there on, the FIA was going to measure the tread width on worn tyres

Dupasquier: "Yes."

BG: And you're telling me they don't do it

Dupasquier: "No, the continue to measure it on fresh ones. They don't care. Somebody was pressuring them to say, why don't you find something to discredit the Michelins..."

BG: Somebody? Ferrari

Dupasquier: "Yeah, yeah. Sure."

BG: Michelin even threatened to sue Ferrari's technical director, Ross Brawn, for slander last year, after he said in an interview that you cheated....

Dupasquier: "We could have done that, because it's not fair to put the name of a company like Michelin, with 130,000 employees, under pressure for some rubbish like that. But this was not my responsibility."

BG: This is quite shocking what you're telling me. I remember last year, McLaren's Ron Dennis and Williams's Patrick Head and you yourself - you all said the biggest problem is how to measure the tread on a worn tyre

Dupasquier: "Yes! They give us 270mm - we take 269.9mm - if you give up any percent, you are not competitive in Formula One. So we know we are marginal, on purpose. That's why we wanted to know exactly when and how the FIA measures, to make sure that we are right at the limit."

BG: OK, in Hungary 2003 Charlie Whiting checked the used tyres, and he found that the Williams front tyre's tread width after the race was a few millimetres more than 270

Dupasquier: "Yes, absolutely."

BG: OK. So how did he measure it? What did he do?

Dupasquier: "He looked at the tyre and he measured from one side to the other, until no scratch was visible. On one side it was easy, but on the outside wall of the tyre he went until you couldn't see any scratch on the rubber of the tyre's side wall."

BG: So it's visible

Dupasquier: "Oh yeah. And in addition, the extreme of the tread is worn out, so it becomes lower and close to the side wall."

BG: OK, clarify this for me, then: if in China, for example, Charlie Whiting would have done the same thing after the race - measured the tread width of the used tyres - is there a chance that he would have again found it to be more than 270mm?

Dupasquier: "Absolutely, oh yes, absolutely. And we would have told him in response that this part of the tyre is not in constant and permanent contact with the ground, so it's not the tread."

BG: So really, everything that happened last year was just...

Dupasquier: "Absolutely bullshit, you can say it! Absolutely."

BG: That's crazy...

Dupasquier: "Yes. That's Formula One..."

Hope that helps...

Stephan Heublein hat geschrieben:

Um mal ein bisschen Aufklärung im Falle der Tyregate-Affäre von Ungarn 2003 zu tätigen hier ein klitzekleiner Auszug aus einem ausfürhlichen Interview mit Pierre Dupasquier. Geführt von unserer Kollegin Biranit Goren von AtlasF1.

Biranit Goren hat geschrieben:

(...)
BG: OK, I'll tell you what's the conspiracy theory on the Internet.

Dupasquier, giggling: "Ohhh, I like conspiracy theories!"

BG: Then you'll love this one. Some fans believe that this year's BAR was designed initially for Bridgestone, which was a narrower tyre in 2003, whereas the other Michelin teams began designing this year's car before the Hungarian Grand Prix last year, before the whole 'Tyre Gate' affair. So the conspiracy theory is that BAR were doing well this year because their car was built for narrower tyres. And because Michelin had to change to narrower tyres after Hungary last year - when your front tread width was deemed to be outside the permitted 270mm of the regulations - BAR has the most suitable car. That's the conspiracy theory.

Dupasquier: "Definitely a nice one! Well, you can always build theories like that. But the first thing I have to say is that BAR modified significantly their car according to our tyres, so it's not the Bridgestone car they're running.

"But most importantly, we did not modify our tyre - this year we ran the same tyre as we did last year, before Hungary. The only thing we changed was added a clear mark on both sides of the tread, to make it more visible and the measurement easier. Other than that, we did not modify anything to it - we didn't even change the mould, it's the same mould. So the conspiracy is therefore not valid."

BG: If it's the same tyre, then why wasn't it legal - according to what the FIA said - in the 2003 Hungarian Grand Prix, but in 2004 is was legal?

Dupasquier: "Well we believe it was always legal - before and after 2003. But after all the mess last year, the FIA have been very fair in saying, 'OK, we agree on the fact that the tyres have to be measured when they are new' - because afterwards you get on the curbs, you get trace of contact everywhere, it's a mess, not just the side wall. The whole problem was the interpretation of what's a tread? If you remember, Charlie [Whiting] wrote to the teams after Hungary last year and said the tread is the part of the tyre which is constantly and permanently in contact with the ground. And obviously no one part of the front tyre is constantly and permanently in contact with the ground. So once this was clarified, we talked some more and really there was no argument anymore."

BG: I don't get it. Are you telling me that since then, and throughout 2004, the FIA scrutineers do not measure the tread width of the front tyres after they are used?

Dupasquier: "No, they don't. And they didn't ask us to provide input on how to do that either."

BG: Really? So all this affair last year - with Ferrari accusing you of cheating - it sounds like all this was just a storm in a tea cup...

Dupasquier: "Oh yeah, somebody just wanted to spoil the World Championship last year, in case they don't win..."

BG: Come on, this is important; you're telling me that... The message that Charlie Whiting sent the teams last year stated that from there on, the FIA was going to measure the tread width on worn tyres

Dupasquier: "Yes."

BG: And you're telling me they don't do it

Dupasquier: "No, the continue to measure it on fresh ones. They don't care. Somebody was pressuring them to say, why don't you find something to discredit the Michelins..."

BG: Somebody? Ferrari

Dupasquier: "Yeah, yeah. Sure."

BG: Michelin even threatened to sue Ferrari's technical director, Ross Brawn, for slander last year, after he said in an interview that you cheated....

Dupasquier: "We could have done that, because it's not fair to put the name of a company like Michelin, with 130,000 employees, under pressure for some rubbish like that. But this was not my responsibility."

BG: This is quite shocking what you're telling me. I remember last year, McLaren's Ron Dennis and Williams's Patrick Head and you yourself - you all said the biggest problem is how to measure the tread on a worn tyre

Dupasquier: "Yes! They give us 270mm - we take 269.9mm - if you give up any percent, you are not competitive in Formula One. So we know we are marginal, on purpose. That's why we wanted to know exactly when and how the FIA measures, to make sure that we are right at the limit."

BG: OK, in Hungary 2003 Charlie Whiting checked the used tyres, and he found that the Williams front tyre's tread width after the race was a few millimetres more than 270

Dupasquier: "Yes, absolutely."

BG: OK. So how did he measure it? What did he do?

Dupasquier: "He looked at the tyre and he measured from one side to the other, until no scratch was visible. On one side it was easy, but on the outside wall of the tyre he went until you couldn't see any scratch on the rubber of the tyre's side wall."

BG: So it's visible


Dupasquier: "Oh yeah. And in addition, the extreme of the tread is worn out, so it becomes lower and close to the side wall."

BG: OK, clarify this for me, then: if in China, for example, Charlie Whiting would have done the same thing after the race - measured the tread width of the used tyres - is there a chance that he would have again found it to be more than 270mm?

Dupasquier: "Absolutely, oh yes, absolutely. And we would have told him in response that this part of the tyre is not in constant and permanent contact with the ground, so it's not the tread."

BG: So really, everything that happened last year was just...

Dupasquier: "Absolutely bullshit, you can say it! Absolutely."

BG: That's crazy...

Dupasquier: "Yes. That's Formula One..."

Hope that helps...

yes thx! ..super interview! ich hoff mal, dass das thema damit vom tisch ist.

ps: eure bilderstrecken sind echt super!!! aber bitte bitte verschafft mir aufklärung.. ist der 2004er ml auf dem 2004er sauber tatsächlich anderthalb sekunden schneller??? entweder ich hab 2004 ne komplett andere saison gesehn und alle anderen ml-teams wären auf bs-reifen, auf minardi-niveau, oder da stimmt was net

DrSpeed hat geschrieben:

Ich bitte euch, welchen Vorteil sollte Ferrari von BS-pneus denn haben? Weil sie als einziges Top-Team weiterhin mit BS beliefert werden. Und das soll für die Scuderia ein Vorteil sein? Bleibt bitte fair! Weswegen flüchten denn alle zu Michellin
Ferrari kann seine Reifenentwicklung mit keinem Team mehr vergleichen, im Gegensatz zu BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Renault, Sauber, Toyota usw.!
(...cut)

BS und Ferrari sollten sich eigentlich nicht gross über die Flucht der anderen Teams zu Michelin beklagen (tun sie aber mit dem Test-Tage Gejammere), denn die haben sich die ganze Geschichte selbst eingebrockt.
BS will Reifen für nur ein Team bauen? OK, dann müssen sie halt mit den Daten von diesem einen Team leben. Was soll ein Team Daten an BS liefern, wenn ihnen mit diesen Daten eh kein adäkuater Reifen gebaut wird?

(quote ende)

Ich glaube dem Peter Sauber sehr wohl, wenn dieser sagt mit Michelin sei sein Auto 0.5sek schneller. Sollte er Daten von Ms erhalten haben, ist diese Zeit sogar noch aussagekräftiger: Der C23 war ja (so gut wie's ging) an BS angepasst. Um "echte" Zeiten zu erreichen, musste das Auto also auch an Ms angepasst werden (einen unagepassten C23 mit einem angepassten C23 zu vergleichen hätte wenig Sinn).

Einen Datentranfer von Sauber über Ferrari zu BS würde ich mal bezweifeln, da der C24 ein neues Auto ist, und weder Ferrari noch Bs dieses Auto kennen. Bs könnte also mit den Daten relativ wenig anfangen und nicht mit z.B Vorjahresdaten vergleichen (geschweige denn mit diesen Daten einen Reifen für Ferrari bauen).

Eigentlich hoffe ich, dass sich Sauber vom Ferrarimotor trennt. Dann hört endlich das Sauber-spioniert-für-Ferrari-Gelabere auf und man spricht wieder von Sauber und nicht vom "blauen Ferrari".

Das Michelin Interviw hat wirklich zur Klärung beigetragen ... wobei jetzt wahrscheinlich die Diskussion von Neuem dahingehend losgehen wird, ob die Michelin Reifen jetzt schon immer legal oder immer noch illegal waren/ sind.

Wie dem auch sei, ich finde es auf jedne Fall bezeichenend, dass der Großteil der f1 Welt davon ausgeht, dass die Reifen kontrolliert werden... und kaum das Bridgestone Zeit hatte einen annährend ädäqauten Reifen zu entwicklen niemand mehr davon spricht... aber zumindest haben jetzt beide Reifenhersteller die gleichen Vorraussetzungen.

Sauber

migheleto hat geschrieben:

Eigentlich hoffe ich, dass sich Sauber vom Ferrarimotor trennt. Dann hört endlich das Sauber-spioniert-für-Ferrari-Gelabere auf und man spricht wieder von Sauber und nicht vom "blauen Ferrari".

Dass solche Sprüche weniger auftauchen würden, wäre schon gut, aber würdest du es Sauber gönnen, mit z. B. Peugeot-Motoren (oder weiss nicht was für Motoren) hinterherzufahren (denn so einfach ist es wahrscheinlich nicht, einen neuen und starken Motorpartner zu finden)?

Es gibt Gerüchte die besagen, dass Sauber die Umstellung auf einen V8 nutzen will, um den Motor in Eigenregie zu entwickeln.

Jotti hat geschrieben:

Es gibt Gerüchte die besagen, dass Sauber die Umstellung auf einen V8 nutzen will, um den Motor in Eigenregie zu entwickeln.

Dies würde mich sehr freuen, denn wenn ein Team Motor und Chassis selbst entwickelt, finde ich das immer besonders gut. Aber ist denn dies jetzt gut möglich oder war das nur so ein (selbsterfundenes) Gerücht?

Ist gut möglich. Sauber hat unter der Leitung von Osamo Goto einen MotoGP-Motor entwickelt, der jedoch "dank" F1-Technik dermassen teuer geriet, dass sich kein Team diesen Motor leisten konnte. Die Werks-Teams haben natürlich von diesem "Angebot" keinen Gebrauch gemacht und lieber ihre eigenen Motoren entwickelt.

Sauber verfügt offenbar über eine Infrastruktur, die den Motorenbau ermöglicht. Und Osamo Goto ist ein guter Name in der Szene. Ob sie es tatsächlich machen oder weiter einen Kunden-Motor beziehen wird sich erst noch heraus stellen. Die laufenden Kosten dürften bei einer Eigen-Entwicklung ähnlich hoch sein wie bei einem Kunden-Triebwerk, dazu kommt halt die Entwicklung, welche auch nicht von Pappe ist. Doch Sauber könnte "seine" Triebwerke dann ebenfalls als Kundentriebwerke anbieten! Bekanntlich sind gerade Schweizer bei der Refinanzierung gewiefte Geschäftsleute (Stichwort: 1 Windkanal für 1 Kimi Raikkönen)

Ich wusste gar nicht, dass die mit Motorenbau schon so 'viel' Erfahrung haben. Aber wenn das so ist, hoffe ich jetzt einmal, dass Sauber diese Idee in Angriff nehmen und erfolgreich ausführen.